Nationalmannschaft der Zukunft

Zitat von Gernot Mittendorfer

Ich schätze Alpo Suhonen als Fachmann sehr und Riga kann man ihm nicht alleine in die Schuhe schieben. Alpo ist sehr direkt und ungeduldig, damit können manche nicht so recht umgehen. Dass er sich mit dieser Art natürlich Feinde schafft, ist mir bewusst.

http://www.laola1.at/de/red/winters…tendorfer-2209/

Mittendorfer doesn't sound very critical of Suhonen. Hopefully he is just speaking politically correctly, and does not actually think that the Austrian Hockey community at large is ok with Suhonen for any longer than necessary up to and not exceeding next summer.

Zitat von MacReady

Bist nicht du derjenige, der mich immer belehrt, dass man ein Spiel live sehen muss, um es beurteilen zu dürfen?

Dann helf ich dir gerne auf die Sprünge. Du urteiltest sehr oft über KAC-Spiele, zu denen es keine Stream gab (da Dienstagsspiele) und die du nicht gesehen hast. Kann man alles hier nachlesen. Im Gegensatz dazu gab es die Linzer Auftritte sehr wohl im Stream zu sehen. Gerade von dir würde ich mir schon eine feinere Unterscheidungskunst erwarten

da muss ich @MacReady recht geben, die Zeiten seiner ellenlange Posts sind vorbei

Zitat von kabidjan14

Mittendorfer doesn't sound very critical of Suhonen.

Maybe because he knows him and his work (up to now) better than you or I or we or the (as you called it) Austrian Hockey Community. Maybe or maybe not, who knows. But as I understand the words of Mittendorfer, Suhonens days seem to be over nevertheless (after the end of his contract). If they merge the positions of headcoach, sport director and youth coordinator, I'm sure, that this person will not be called Alpo Suhonen.

So just one more year and then you and others will get your wish and a new guy to criticize for absolutely everything that's wrong in Austrian hockey.

Zitat von nordiques!

Maybe because he knows him and his work (up to now) better than you or I or we or the (as you called it) Austrian Hockey Community. Maybe or maybe not, who knows. But as I understand the words of Mittendorfer, Suhonens days seem to be over nevertheless (after the end of his contract). If they merge the positions of headcoach, sport director and youth coordinator, I'm sure, that this person will not be called Alpo Suhonen.
So just one more year and then you and others will get your wish and a new guy to criticize for absolutely everything that's wrong in Austrian hockey.

Perception is often far more important than reality. Even if Mittendorfer knows Suhonen well as you think and knows about contributions made outside of the public knowledge that is unimportant as long as the public sentiment is against him. From to players and coaches, EBEL system staff, youth players and youth coaches, journalists, too many people are not fond of Suhonen and unaware of "his work." By the Austrian hockey community I am not referring to fans, though fans as a source of revenue are extremely important, I am referring to those actually in the Austrian hockey community as mentioned above. You are probably a working man. If many of your colleagues and clients either hate you and refuse to work with you or have reservations about working with you, it matters not what you do or how skilled you at your individual tasks you are, you have already disqualified yourself for that position in that specific company.

You tend to throw people into a pot of people who will always be critical and I think that's unrealistic. I don't criticize for the purpose of criticizing. Suhonen could easily go elsewhere and, with a change of heart, interact gregariously with his clients and colleagues and he would be perfect for that job in that country, but unless he went on some massive, absurd, and uncharacteristic relationship mending campaign the environment is simply not amiable enough for him to viably stay, and I do blame that on him. One person hates you, well that's normal. But when enough people dislike you the question has to eventually be asked, is it everyone else's fault or is it his...

Zitat von MacReady

Was für ein Schwachsinn

Das musst du wohl irgendwann einmal geträumt und mit der Realität verwechselt haben, werter Kollege. Aber wenn man eh alles nachlesen kann, dann zeig mir doch bitte die sehr häufigen Urteile der Spiele, die ich nicht gesehen hab, bevor du einfach so einen unwahren Blödsinn in den Raum wirfst. Nachdem ich ja sehr oft über Dienstagsspiele urteile, wirst ja sicher kein Problem haben, schnell ein paar zu finden.

Und ich bin sicher nicht der einzige im Forum, der sich von dir ein bissl weniger Überheblichkeit erwarten würde *winke*

Wenn ich mal Zeit dafür habe, werde ich sie dir raussuchen. Aber dafür wurdest eh von roten Publikum intern schon genug "gescholten". Aber ist auch recht, wennst dich bewusst nicht mehr erinnern willst. Ist wahrscheinlich eh besser so.

zum thema junge einsetzen in der EBEL:
milos riha bei slovan bratislava in der KHL zeigt es wie es geht: (auch verletzungsbedingt) sind schon die letzten wochen im schnitt 6 spieler am eis mit alter maximal 21 jahre, einer sogar nur 18 jahre alt.

@kabidjan14 As I said, give time a chance and soon you and others will get a new guy, who you can blame for the fault, to try to help something grow instead of turning water to wine in a short time. And even if Suhonen is a difficult and strong headed person (something that's really not a secret), i won't use the word hate in this context (especially as I can't remember any critical open words outside a disappointed Rotter, Viveiros and Daum - except some nameless accusations in local newspapers).

And you're right, personal relationships matter in the working process and this may be or is not a strength of the Finn, but finally Suhonen was not hired to making friends. His job was to change something for the better in Austrian hockey and imo he did it. Maybe not that much he, I and a lot of others may have liked, but his starting point was the desert (a result of the time of making friends instead of progress and development in Austrian hockey) and now there may be a kind of direction for his eventual successor (be it the coaching-program or the increased focus on the national youth-teams).

As I said numerous times, you can't undo forty years of wrongdoings in a short time. And for all the mistakes he may have made (and he did), this was and is an unrealistic expectation, for which Suhonen unfairly was blamed from day 1. But if not for Suhonen, why did those small positive steps not happened before him? All of his critics are very good in pointing at this and that failure, but up to now I've not seen a workable concept from them, that's not kind of daydreaming and wonderland.

The problem is not so much the person Suhonen but more the point, that the guy, that follows him, will sooner or later find himself in the same situation. Otherwise Austrian hockey would be on a different and higher level since a long time. We are very good at knowing better instead of doing better. And the sad thing is, that even after all this years of not going forward, the best faultfinders don't realize, that they are a part of the problem, too.

@nordiques! See you read the papers, you read the news. That's good for you, but there are plenty of people who know as much or are as into Austrian hockey as you and think that things were better in the past than the present. Most people in fact don't agree with your idea of "40 years wrongdoings" which you've touted many times, many people believe the good old days were better (I don't). You only know Rotter, Viveiros, Daum because you only read the news, some other people talk to staff members and you just list them off or discount what they say. I talk to a separate group I get the same feedback. It's a very small number of people, usually people exiting the program or who have no future in the program, who will openly criticize, similar to any job you won't criticize your boss openly until you are leaving, but if you take the time get to know people, Suhonen is not exactly popular, though I did find one person who liked him.

I can't speak for everyone here but I can speak for myself, you should stop stereotyping me into this big pool of "people who love to complain" or "people who love to blame." I think Suhonen has laid a decent foundation. Now I think he needs to go, the environment he has created is too toxic for him to remain. Incidentally I believe that once he is gone and his successor takes over, if no egregious errors are made, Austrian hockey should begin to move forwards and thrive, in large part due to Suhonen's work. If you review a lot of the recent things (positive things) I've said about Roger Bader, it's not as if I (speaking for myself) am merely critical of those in charge for the sake of being critical or like to find fault in systems. The problem is that a selection of not just players, but league staff members, local coaches, and the media have lost any interest in cooperating with Suhonen on a number of issues, or he has lost interest in collaborating with them. Once he is gone and someone new comes in the relationships reset at zero. Then his coaching programs, his player conditioning programs, his camp regimens and other things he's contributed will really begin to move things in the right direction, even as I feel Austrian hockey is in a relatively good place, but before that I don't really see much getting done while the petty standoffs continue.

It must have been on of your first posts in this forum in 2015):

Zitat von kabidjan14

Genau. Vor Manny Viveiros verlassen, sagte er etwas sehr wahr. Das einzige Team, das Erfolg wird, ist der A-Nationalmannschaft. Die Mannschaft, die er trainiert. Die u20 und u18 Mannschaften waren schon nicht spielen auf höchstem Niveau und waren fast wieder abgestiegen. Die Olympischen Jugend-Team war verlegen an den Jugend-Olympiade, auch gegen die Slowakei. Die u16 und u15 Mannschaften verlieren gegen lokale kanadischen und amerikanischen Teams. Alpo Suhonen versprochen österreichischen Trainer für österreichische Volk. Dann stellte er Roger Bader, der Schweizer ist und Dan Ratushny die Kanadier ist. Suhonen muss einen besseren Job machen, oder Suhonen muss gehen.

That's what i exactly meant with water to wine in a short time and unrealistic expectations. If Suhonen does not find and develop first class Austrian coaches in hist first two years, he has to go (seems to be your opinion, too). And I'm still curious with your position in hockey, too, cause you always give the impression, that you know a lot of people involved and have first-hand informations (and thus are better informed than most of us), but on the other hand this remembers me a lot of my 'oh-so-loved' insiders in this forum, whose only argument and point of view seems to be the fact, that they do something important in hockey and know somebody important in hockey and thus their opinion is the correct one. Needless to say, that they are unwilling to tell what they do and whom they know.

And Suhonen aside, just because someone is not popular with the people he has to deal with, does not mean automatically, that he is wrong or doing a bad job. Some years ago I worked in Vienna's largest bookshop and my floor manager was in private a very nice person, but in the work often a pain in the arse for our stuff (I had no probs with him). He once told me, that his job is not to be a friend in work, but to take care of the workflow and that everybody is doing their job. Workwise he may have been one of the least popular floor managers in our company, but once he was gone, people started to realize the difference of a floor manager, who chiefly managed the floor, and our remaining floor managers, who primarily wanted to be friends with us.

That's not said, that Suhonen should remain, cause I'm on the same page, too, that he sometimes lacks the ability to be a diplomat and should be more self-aware of his misjudgements here and there, but I'm still of the opinion, that a lot of the criticsim toward him is unfair and onesided and this was from the day of his appointment the case (and the last example is the number of his salary).

Zitat von nordiques!

It must have been on of your first posts in this forum in 2015):

That's what i exactly meant with water to wine in a short time and unrealistic expectations. If Suhonen does not find and develop first class Austrian coaches in hist first two years, he has to go (seems to be your opinion, too). And I'm still curious with your position in hockey, too, cause you always give the impression, that you know a lot of people involved and have first-hand informations (and thus are better informed than most of us), but on the other hand this remembers me a lot of my 'oh-so-loved' insiders in this forum, whose only argument and point of view seems to be the fact, that they do something important in hockey and know somebody important in hockey and thus their opinion is the correct one. Needless to say, that they are unwilling to tell what they do and whom they know.
And Suhonen aside, just because someone is not popular with the people he has to deal with, does not mean automatically, that he is wrong or doing a bad job. Some years ago I worked in Vienna's largest bookshop and my floor manager was in private a very nice person, but in the work often a pain in the arse for our stuff (I had no probs with him). He once told me, that his job is not to be a friend in work, but to take care of the workflow and that everybody is doing their job. Workwise he may have been one of the least popular floor managers in our company, but once he was gone, people started to realize the difference of a floor manager, who chiefly managed the floor, and our remaining floor managers, who primarily wanted to be friends with us.

That's not said, that Suhonen should remain, cause I'm on the same page, too, that he sometimes lacks the ability to be a diplomat and should be more self-aware of his misjudgements here and there, but I'm still of the opinion, that a lot of the criticsim toward him is unfair and onesided and this was from the day of his appointment the case (and the last example is the number of his salary).

That posts serves a good example. First, the U15 and U16 performances have improved drastically since then, but more importantly, since that post about 20 months ago I've been able to get in contact with more people since then, expand my knowledge and make more informed opinions.

You don't have to believe me when I say I know people. If you go to my Authockeytx blog though (links all over the forum) you'll see stats for the various pre-season youth tournaments and national team camp scrimmages. You won't find those online. In my Examination of the state of Austrian youth hockey/Junior Career planning I outline a lot of information usually provided only by agents in a simple and concise format. You can make of it what you like.

See my opinion on him has changed over time. It isn't his job to be everyone's friend but he's gone a little too far in the other direction. Roger Bader even does not seem wildly popular but has been better at managing personal relations to at least workable levels. There was a time a while back I thought many things were Suhonen's fault or Bader's fault. Now I've definitely learned more, but Suhonen is at this point still much to blame for a lot of botched relationships and his coaching job at the Qualifications was poor at best, though yes I understand his main capacity isn't a coach. I'm slightly worried Mittendorfer (not knowing him personally) may extend Suhonen next summer, that would be a poor choice, but if you look at my recent posts (as suggested above) I list a lot of reasons why I think things are slow right now, Suhonen is just one but he is probably the only one that the OEHV can control (somewhat).

Roger Bader also...ok.

Zitat von ÖEHV

Roger Bader ist neuer Head Coach des Team Austria.

Unser bisheriger Assistant Coach übernimmt die Rolle des Teamchefs für die anstehende Euro Ice Hockey Challenge im November in Budapest.

Nähere Infos folgen.

Zitat von BigBert #44

Roger Bader also...ok.

who here is surprised

Bader wird Nationaltrainer Österreichs
Freitag, 7. Oktober 2016, 11:58 - Martin Merk
Nun hat die Schweiz auch einen Eishockey-Nationaltrainer in Österreich. Roger Bader wird das österreichische Nationalteam zumindest im November beim Vierländerturnier in Ungarn übernehmen.
Bader löst Alpo Suhonen ab, der Dan Ratushny (neu bei Lausanne) ablöste und gleichzeitig Sportdirektor beim österreichischen Eishockeyverband ist. In der Olympia-Qualifikation waren die Österreicher gegen Deutschland und Lettland aber chancenlos und schlossen das Turnier vor Japan auf dem dritten Rang ab.

Nun kommt Bader zum Zuge, der in der Schweiz früher U16-U18-Nationalteams coachte und die letzten zwei Jahre U20-Nationaltrainer Österreichs war. Ob Bader nach dem Turnier im November beim Herren-Nationalteam weitermacht, wird zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt entschieden.

Irgendwie wartet man vergeblich auf eine überraschende Teamtrainer-Lösung. Ich kann überhaupt nicht beurteilen, ob Bader geeignet ist, aber da er offenbar im engen Dunstkreis von Suhonen ist, erwarte ich mir nicht viel. Mein Eindruck ist, dass man immer die jeweils billigste Lösung präferiert. Schade, dass man nicht endlich einmal einen Fulltime-Coach verpflichtet.

Just waiting for the day the internal solution is Mittendorfer himself.

On a serious note, I like Bader. I prefer him to replace Suhonen, not necessarily be the head coach. I've heard good and bad about him but more good than bad, and his results speak for themselves. When Suhonen's contract ends there will be more money on the table to discuss other options. Until then, Bader will absolutely do.

Eigentlich ist es unvorstellbar lächerlich das da kein Fulltimecoach genommen wird.
Selbst wenn dieser 150.000/Jahr kostet (was ich nicht glaube), soviel Geld wird der OEHV doch bitte noch haben?

Das ist somit der siebte Headcoach nach der Heim-WM 2005 (in keinen zwölf Jahren). Nicht gerade die beste Quote (und Voraussetzung) für ein spielschwächeres Team.

Aber was sollst machen, wenn Fans, Öffentlichkeit, Medien und Experten eine so hohe Meinung von unseren Spielern zu haben scheinen, dass nur der Trainer schuld sein kann, wenn wiedermal eine WM in die Hose gegangen ist - und deshalb als Konsequenz eben der Coach geschast wird. Sicher nicht immer zu Recht - diesen Irrtum muss ich mir mittlerweile ja auch selber eingestehen (denk ich an manche Posts von mir der Vergangenheit).

Wahrscheinlich würd' dahier nicht einmal ein Babcock mehr als 2-3 Jahre überstehen (so als Gegenpol zu Suhonens mißglücktem Coaching-Comebackversuch). Wohl auch ein Ergebnis dieser Kombi aus nationalem Desinteresse und lokalem Über-Interesse, was v.a. von Medienseite her zu einer ziemlichen Schlagseite führen kann und oft einem langfristigen Prozess alles andere als dienlich ist.

Im Ende hat das NT in den letzten 30 Jahren sowohl FT- als auch TZ-Heads gehabt, beides mit so oder so Erfolgen. Hängt halt auch oft von der Qualität und ein wenig den good moves und moods ab, weil Garantien gibt es da und dort keine. Aber dass es irgendeine Art von ganzjähriger hauptamtlicher sportliche Betreuung (Scouting, Kontakt, Verbindung mit der U20 und U18) auch des Senioren-NTs braucht, sollte außer Frage stehen. Gerade wenn die Spielerdecke dünn ist. Was nicht automatische heißt, dass das der Headcoach sein muss.

Aber denke mal, da wird sich im nächsten Jahr sowieso was tun (mit dem freigewordenen Suhonen-Geld), mit der Entscheidung Bader kann ich aber auf NT-Ebene mittlerweile eher schlechter leben (weil was war denn nun seine Aufgabe und Input bei der OGQ?). Aber gut, wird vielleicht eine weitere aus der Not geborenes Übergangsidee sein (mit weniger Auswirkung), vielleicht ergibt sich ja bis zur WM eine bessere Lösung extern oder aus der Liga raus (weil Bader sollte sich auf seinen imo guten Job im Nachwuchsbereich konzentrieren können).

http://www.tt.com/sport/12147255…ishockey-wm.csp

Der U18 Kader für das Viernationenturnier:

Bin damit eigentlich zufrieden. Unsere "Schweizer" sind mit dabei. Vor allem auf Baumgartner darf man gespannt sein. Sonst sind auch recht interessante Namen im Roster.

und vor allem 3 Jungs aus dem VSV Nachwuchs

[Blockierte Grafik: https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14729274_1109168135833070_5907055252950390609_n.jpg?oh=fb7cf1b63aa93513790b6764322f27d0&oe=58A54B9B]

http://www.eishockey.at/de/red/news/na…ew-roger-bader/

I know these are only friendly matches, but why Bischofberger and Rauchenwald over Kromp and Huber? Also think the Kristler and Fischer pick look a bit like a legacy picks. Can't wait for Dominc Zwerger to finally join a men's team. The core of the team of the future is exciting, but the star-power isn't quite there. Will see and remain optimistic.

Strong ist ab sofort fürs Nationalteam spielberechtigt.

Interessant auch, dass Roger Bader in Eigenregie in den Statuten des IIHF nachgeforscht hat und es sich herausstellte, dass die im ÖEHV gängige Meinung von den berühmten 2 Spielzeiten nicht mehr stimmt.

Der ÖEHV scheint ne One Man Show zu sein. Gebt Bader das Geld, das er verdient. Wenigstens einer, der auch arbeitet.