Die Zukunft der EBEL - Punkteregelung

Zitat von Fan_atic01

es wurde, glaube ich, noch nicht verstanden, dass es weniger um den sportlichen Erfolg als viel mehr ums Überleben geht. Die Angst konnte mir noch keiner nehmen.

Zitat von Poke Check

Die letzten zwei Saisonen hat Villach in der Tat freiwillig darauf verzichtet, das Legio-Kontingent auszuschöpfen. Mit dem Ergebnis, dass zwei schwarze Saisonen hatte und man hier im Villach-Forum schon darüber diskutiert hat, ob der Verein in der EBEL eine Zukunft hat.

richtig, es funktioniert nämlich nur dann nicht (und ist existenzbedrohend) wenn man allein diesen Schritt geht. Wenn alle Vereine diese Maßnahmen mittragen, dann fällt dieser Qualitätsverlust nicht wirklich auf es tun sich keine großen Leistungsgefälle auf (es geht ja allen gleich) und der kurzfristige negative Effekt (der öminöse Qualitätsverlust) vor dem ja viele so Angst haben, wirkt sich wenig bis kaum aus.

Wers nicht glaubt, da hilft ein Blick auf die Tabelle.

Zitat von MacReady

Stabil ist die Liga, wie du ja auch selbst sagst, hauptsächlich durch die Hinzunahme von ausländischen Teams geworden, hätten wir es weiterhin mit rein inländischen Teams probiert, wäre die Problematik genau dieselbe, ganz egal, ob mit Legiobeschränkung oder ohne.

Hier wird aber eben ständig behauptet, dass die Einführung der Punkteregel für diese Stabilität verantwortlich ist, diesbezüglich gibt es aber keinen klar erkennbaren Zusammenhang zu geben, weil wie gesagt, am instabilsten war die Lage in der Vergangenheit, als es keine Importbeschränkung gab und in der jüngsten Vergangenheit kann ich da eigentlich keine Vereine finden, von denen beträchtlich mehr während einer Importbeschränkung weggebrochen sind als ohne.

Also, wenn mir jemand von den Experten die Zusammenhänge in den Daten zeigen könnte, ich frage schon seit Jahren darum, liefern hat sie aber noch niemand können

Ich gebe dir Recht, dass die offensichtliche Instabilität der Liga in den 90ern unter einer lockeren Importpolitik zu Stande gekommen ist. Das ist aber nur ein Faktor, wenn man die Stabilität der Liga damals und heute (=EBEL) vergleicht (wenn auch ein wichtiger). Zu bedenken sind dabei noch weitere Dinge:

1) die Importregelung in den 90ern war nicht so freizügig wie unter der Punkteregelung (ich habe das in den mittleren 0er Jahren für meine Dis erhoben, bin im OEHV Büro gewesen und habe mir die Durchführungsbestimmungen der Buli aus der Steinzeit herauf Jahr für Jahr angeschaut). dafür gab's damals noch deutlich mehr Doppelstaatsbürger/Eingebürgerte

2) Zur Instabilität des Betriebes in den 90ern hat mMn auch eine gewisse Wildwestmentalität bei einigen Vereinsbossen beigetragen, die den Erfolg mit allen Mitteln kaufen wollten. Das hat sich mMn fundamental geändert, die Klubs werden heute mMn deutlich professioneller und v.a. risikoaverser geführt

3) heute gibt es Mittel aus der Ligavermarktung, die, über die Klubs verteilt, ausgleichend wirken - gabs damals mWn nicht

4) mit RB- Salzburg und Linz sind zwei Standorte dazugekommen, die wirtschftlich auf Level mit den anderen "Großen" sind

Die Punkte 2-4 sind aber auch indirekt mit der Importöffnung verbunden, diese hat beigetragen ein in weiterem Sinne marktfähiges Produkt zu schaffen, das professionelle Strukturen und längerfristiges Planen überhaupt erst zulässt.

Insofern bleibe ich ganz klar bei der Einschätzung, dass die Importregelung der EBEL nicht nur zufällig mit der Stabilität dieser Liga einhergegangen ist, sondern ursächlich dafür MITverantwortlich war. Genauso wie die laxe Importregelung der 90er MITverantwortlich war, dass damals quasi kein Jahr dem anderen glich.

Und genauso hat die restriktive Importpolitik der Reformliga Anfang der 2000er dazu beigetragen, dass dieses Konstrukt sehr kurzlebig war.

Zitat von Daywalker50

Scherz beiseite, natürlich willst auch einen Erfolg sehen, ich glaub der letzte Heimsieg war Anfang November, aber das Gemurkse in der letzte Saison

war auch nicht viel besser und da gab es glaub ich 16 Legionäre!

Letzte Saison war es in Wirklichkeit deutlich besser. Nach 25 Spielen ist man mit 34 Punkten dagestanden, diese Saison sind es gerade mal 21. Nur war die Erwartungshaltung letzte Saison eine ganze andere, während man dieses Jahr von vornherein bescheiden war.

Für mich als Fan macht es einen Unterschied, ob die Mannschaft zumindest eine Chance hat oder ob von vornherein klar ist, dass es nichts zu holen gibt. Und das ist zuletzt in Innsbruck eben der Fall gewesen. Warum sollen die Leute da in die Halle strömen und EBEL-Preise zahlen? Weil ein paar Burschen mit Tiroler Nachnamen am Eis stehen?

Zitat von Poke Check

Da widerspreche ich dir gar nicht. Die diesjährige Misere in Innsbruck ist durchaus auch hausgemacht. Aber wenn weiter Legios reduziert werden, dann werden Vereine wie Innsbruck und Dornbirn so oder so auf der Strecke bleiben, auch wenn sie sonst alles richtig machen.

Nochmal meine Frage: Was hindert Innsbruck daran, sich gute Österreicher aus der Alps auszuleihen um eine vollständige dritte oder vierte Linie zu bekommen??

Verlieren tut man so auch, vielleicht hat man aber andererseits die Chance, den ein oder anderen Punkt zu holen.

Ich würde die Jungen ja net unbedingt alle in einer Linie aufstellen, sondern mit Legios zusammenspannen, aber nur mit zweieinhalb Sturmreihen anzutanzen, macht meiner Meinung nach halt auch keinen Sinn!

Zitat von shadow2711

Nochmal meine Frage: Was hindert Innsbruck daran, sich gute Österreicher aus der Alps auszuleihen um eine vollständige dritte oder vierte Linie zu bekommen??

Ich würde annehmen, dass Innsbruck das bereits machen würde, wenn solche Spieler verfügbar wären.

Kannst ja im letztjährigen Thread lesen was der KAC als Antwort gegeben hat, als man sich den Schnetzer ausleihen wollte.

Poke Check

Das Play Off hat man trotzdem klar verpasst (wie auch heuer es der Fall sein wird).

Man bekommt heuer einfach die Quittung der letzten Jahre.

Die Beschränkung finde ich persönlich gut, ist allerdings nur eine Maßnahme von vielen die man umsetzen sollte und das betrifft einige Vereine.

Zitat von Daywalker50

Poke Check

Das Play Off hat man trotzdem klar verpasst (wie auch heuer es der Fall sein wird).

Für mich als Fan macht es einen Unterschied, ob man im Spiel eine Chance hat oder von vornherein auf verlorenem Posten steht wie zuletzt.

Diese Situation im Moment ist aber auch etwas besonderes (im negativen Sinn)!

Zitat von kabidjan14

I think this is a really good point, which is why I want to push back on it. I think there's a lot that's valid here.

However, I think the reason that these lines struggle with scoring is precisely for the reason you mentioned. These lines receive no care, they're not properly planned. They're put out there for the sole purpose of maintaining the status quo. And that's exactly what they accomplish. Think about it this way. Salzburg vs. Innsbruck. First forty seconds is shift one for each team, let's just say line 1 vs line 1 ("good on good"). Next forty seconds is second shift for each team. "Twos on twos." So you have your Salzburg line three, vs. Innsbruck line three. Bar, Paulweber, Ludin, and defensemen Vallant and Nussbaumer. Is this really an impossible line to score against? Is it even a difficult line to score against? For anyone in the Salzburg system, scoring against such a line should not only be possible but easily attainable. Even if you're playing a powerhouse like Vienna. Maybe the third line is Artner, Winkler, Grosslercher, Birnbaum and Dorion. Maybe it's better, maybe Winkler and Wukovits are there instead. That should not be an insurmountable line to score against either. Now, obviously, as the game goes on, different lines play different lines, and there's a good bit of line matching as well. If I think my top line has the best chance to score against your 4th line, I might plan accordingly, etc.

With all due respect and reverence, I don't get the sense that the Salzburg staff put any effort into deciding who should be in the bottom six. They don't put effort into how the bottom six should be organized. They don't even really put effort into deciding who should be on the senior team. They merely sign every year the kids who most recently turned 21. And those are the new senior team members. Well, those aren't the best players. Anyone who watches the farmteam can tell very quickly. But that's not the point. That's not the purpose. Bottom 6ers are just treated as warm bodies, in which case sorting by age makes just as much sense as sorting by any other mechanism.

A guy like Nico Feldner, for example, needs a specific style of player to enable him to score. He isn't a consistent puck-handler in his own right, even at the AlpsHL level, you will not see him handle the puck more than necessary. But he has a big shot, good forechecking, and can make good moves around the net. You can say "wow, so many limitations." Absolutely. None of these kids are complete players, but that's just a fact of reality. So, if you wanted a line where you maximized Nico's offensive potential, you'd have to have two good puck-handlers who could play give-and-go hockey away from him, until he got open in an area where he might be dangerous. So, something like Varejcka and Baltram comes to mind. And he would compliment them in the respect that he is more physically competent at this level. Or take a guy like Mario Huber. You've definitely seen more of him than I have recently. However, he has some notable strengths. He's a pretty smart player, he's got good hands. On the other hand, he's not extremely fast, he probably under-utilizes his body, and he often requires set up as well. He's far from what you'd imagine your perfect give and go hockey player to be. So if you have Huber and Feldner, two players on a line that both like being set up, and you have one player on that line who has to play give and go hockey with himself, that's going to be a tough line to score with. Another approach you could take. Huber and Baltram like taking shots. If you could raise their shot percentages, you would have more third line scoring. Someone like Max Rebernig is perfect for that. He's the best kid at deflecting shots, screening the goal, rebounds, in the entire Austrian junior system. He is a bit like Feldner in that he can't really handle the puck or make high hockey IQ plays. But if your goal is just to help Baltram (s% 2.7%) and Huber (s% 13.8%), players who want to take shots on net, get their shots in the net, a guy like Max is what you're looking for. He's also a great defensive forward, and a great shot-blocker. Or take a guy like Tim Harnisch. Incredible individual offensive potential, but what I call a "greedy" player, it doesn't mean the player is selfish but that he requires a lot of a resource (possession) to be effective. To get this out of the way, Tim is the best offensive talent in the system, Varejcka is the only one who can be debated. He has more scoring ability by far than Feldner, Pilloni, Witting, Klockl, etc. There is absolutely something to be gained from playing a kid like Harnisch. But you'd need to put him with someone like Michael Schiechl. Someone who is not greedy, who can contribute to the game even if he has the puck on his stick less, and even win more possessions to give Tim more chances to score. These are just a few examples of ways the lower lines might be encouraged to score more.

The problem with Austrian youth is typically not that they're mildly poor at everything, but that they're good enough at some things and heavily lacking at others. The reason Nico scored so many points in a short period of time during the last regular season was because he was placed with legios whose skills complimented his weaknesses. And the reason he stopped scoring was because he was placed on generic bottom 6 lines.The legio restrictions apply to everyone. Not only Salzburg is fielding less experienced rosters, everyone is. Under the right circumstances, he could probably become a viable scorer in the league again. And I do not believe he is the only one, in fact I think there are others who would likely make a greater impact. Think back to the last 1 seed vs. 2 seed matchup KAC vs. RBS recently. Holloway, Brickley, and Feldner. That's a strong line in the sense that Holloway and Brickley are strong players. But do they bring something to Feldner or vise versa that compliments the play styles? Maybe. McIlvane knows more about hockey than I do, he certainly could see something there. But Brickley and Holloway don't really need the physical help that Feldner provides. Both Brickley and Holloway love to shoot, and Feldner's shot is really the only other thing you would call him for. Meanwhile, Holloway especially but Brickley also can make plays, sure. They can create chances for Feldner. But that's not really what they would really be doing if they were playing to their greatest strengths. On the 2nd line, you play against the opposing 2nd line more often, if you were on the 3rd line you might play the 3rd line more often. They may objectively be better playmakers than someone on a lower line, but against expected competition, they may provide Feldner less in the way of chances, etc. The third line was Schiechl, Hochkofler, and Huber. Schiechl and Hochkofler we will call two-way players. Huber likes his set up. KAC is the best defensive team in the league, only 42 GA. Nothing is impossible, but that line doesn't look like a line that is trying to score. Witting, Pilloni, Zitz. That line is not going to bring much offense, in fact, they had zero shots on goal. Finally, the top line with Baltram. Kolarik-Baltram-Hughes. Again, that is a good line, but it's a good line because Kolarik and Hughes are good players. It's an undersized line. I'm not convinced yet that Baltram has physical competency at this level of hockey. Hughes and Thomas Raffl is a great pair, and for obvious reasons, as they compliment each other strongly. Raffl returned the very next game and the line scored 3 goals. Baltram doesn't bring what Raffl brings, or close. He's not a poor man's Raffl, they are just conceptually different players. Also, because Baltram lacks physical competency, what he wants is someone to make up for that by being physically imposing. So Baltram doesn't seem to bring to his linemates what they would like, and they don't bring to him what he would like.

All this to illustrate my opinion that young Austrian talents are unique. If their talents were uniquely appreciated, and they were treated as potential scorers, I think they would show a greater ability to score.

Alles anzeigen

you've put a lot of effort in that post and I think it does merit an answer. The bad news is, I don't think you're on the right track - and even if you were, it wouldn't change a thing. Salzburg is one of the three organizations with a) the most money and b) the most man-power. If they don't make it work, how would anyone else? KAC are clearly doing a mighty fine job at this point. Both systems - and to a lesser degree, the Viennese one - have produced competent young players. I'll over-generalize here but the other clubs produced their young players despite the way they're organized on not because of a sustainable idea. Now, how will these players be able to make their way further on in their careers and further up the lineups (and consequently, for those that put an emphasis on such matters, play a role in the national team)?
One: they need to be better. They need to put everything in there and force the hands of their coaches. It's the same stpory all over again, If you can't show your coach you'll give your team a fraction of a chance to win than when another guy is in the lineup, you will not succeed.
We've gotta split it up here again.
Since this is not happening, what is the reason for it not happening:
A) Coaches are clueless and we, who don't see the players in their daily workouts and trainig sessions know more than they do. Possibly, but doubtful.
B) The players don't show enough hunger/desire or, let's break it down, potential to win the game at any given night than a has-been NHL-winger who#s forced to play at center.

So, I don't get my chances here, what do i do? Stay in the warmth of a "big" organization, play my 12 to 8 minutes a night ( or door-duty), depending on coaches mood and make enough money tp pay for a flat and a car (oddly enough, Niko doesn't need either cause he lives at home and doesn't drive - or didn't when I last saw him)? Or are there other routes I could pursue? Could I go to a different country? to learn and comeback with skills I didn't have- as Kalt Koch and Heinrich (examples) did?

Join A different club in the league (on loan?) and arrange for a more important role than the one I'd have with the coach over there and proove my worth?

Failing that, seek employment ( or loan agreement) a tier below and proove my worth?

there are options. The young players will have to take them and force their way into the top-six.

(in the end, the clubs have themselves killed a points regulation that made sense by extending the 0-point-Protection to sub-24 instead of the planned sub-20. Sub-20-rule would've meant you can't sit 22 to 24 year olds year olds for zero points to make up the numbers. You'd have to pay/use points for those. And if you have to do that, you can't fit as many imports in the lineup. And if you can't do that, the 20-24 year olds would automatically get more ice time. The clubs didn't want that, led by vienna who didn't want to pay/use points for a 22 year old Raffi Rotter in 2009. Yes' it's that long ago.,BUt that's just a side note)

We're looking at a much more important issue as this quote shows:

es wurde, glaube ich, noch nicht verstanden, dass es weniger um den sportlichen Erfolg als viel mehr ums Überleben geht. Die Angst konnte mir noch keiner nehmen.

At this point, without a league sponsor and without a Deal for the TV rights, we will not have a league at all - beacuse no one will be willing and /or able to pay for the structure behind it. People in charge have by far failed to deliver a concept as to what would happen once Erste Group says "fuck it, we're not paying that anymore". There are fractions moving in different directions - including the absurd idea of self-marketing by a club who doesn't even know whether there'll be a league to play in next season. The presidents' meeting will shed some light - and we'll hear about it a few hours/days later depending on when graz or villach feels it suits them to spill the beans.

I'd really like to know who people think is going to pay for all this personnel and structures. Refs cost money, Organization costs money, producing live games cost money and in most fans' ideal world, every game (of their team because fuck the others) should be available on freeTv.

We're in deeper doo-doo than most here realize.


Sorry, I had to cut off there due to the limit of 10.000 characters. Rubbish idea.

Zitat von R.Bourque

B) The players don't show enough hunger/desire or, let's break it down, potential to win the game at any given night than a has-been NHL-winger who#s forced to play at center.

So ist es leider.

Zitat von weiss007

Und genau das glaub ich eben nicht! Es geht halt jetzt vorallem bei den kleineren Vereinen darum, sich mehr um Österreicher zu bemühen und genauer zu schauen, wer den interessant und leistbar wäre. Das es immer wieder (jung) Spieler gibt die mit ihren Rollen im Team unzufrieden sind zeigen die Wechsel von Romig oder Kromp bspw.. Zusätzlich gibt's in den meisten Farmteams/Jugendteams immer wieder Leute die einfach aufgrund von zu vollen Kadern (stärker Jahrgang etc.) auf der Strecke bleiben (bspw. Wappis, Maxa). Ich glaube es ist derzeit einfach ein bequemes Mittel sich auf diese Reduktionsregel auszureden, wenn man es verabsäumt hat im Sommer die Drecksarbeit zu tun...

Ich behaupte sicher nicht, dass es keinen Verbesserungsbedarf beim Scouting gibt. Aber du setzt implizit voraus, dass es genug für die EBEL interessante Österreicher gibt, die für die kleineren Vereine erschwinglich wären. Und da habe ich meine Zweifel. Zumal die Preise durch die Legio-Reduzierung nach oben getrieben werden, weil die Nachfrage künstlich gesteigert wird (mehr österreichische Spieler werden benötigt), während das Angebot unverändert bleibt (gleich viel oder wenig Österreicher mit EBEL-Potential vorhanden). Wie gesagt, es ist kein Zufall, dass es seit den 70ern immer wieder die finanzschwächeren Vereine waren, die sich gegen Legioeinschränkungen gewehrt haben.

Die Idee, österreichischen Spielern über Mindestvorgaben bei der TOI mehr Spielzeit zu beschaffen, gefällt mir da zumindest ein bisschen besser.

Zitat von Malone

Gegenfrage: Was veranlasst andere Klubs ihnen diese zu geben? Zum Ausborgen gehören immer zwei.

Eiszeit auf EBEL-Niveau, was sie anscheinend bei Ihren Klubs net bekommen, weil sie für die anscheinend net gut genug sind.

Zitat von Poke Check

Ich würde annehmen, dass Innsbruck das bereits machen würde, wenn solche Spieler verfügbar wären.

Bist du dir da ganz sicher?

Zitat von R.Bourque

you've put a lot of effort in that post and I think it does merit an answer. The bad news is, I don't think you're on the right track - and even if you were, it wouldn't change a thing. Salzburg is one of the three organizations with a) the most money and b) the most man-power. If they don't make it work, how would anyone else? KAC are clearly doing a mighty fine job at this point. Both systems - and to a lesser degree, the Viennese one - have produced competent young players. I'll over-generalize here but the other clubs produced their young players despite the way they're organized on not because of a sustainable idea. Now, how will these players be able to make their way further on in their careers and further up the lineups (and consequently, for those that put an emphasis on such matters, play a role in the national team)?
One: they need to be better. They need to put everything in there and force the hands of their coaches. It's the same stpory all over again, If you can't show your coach you'll give your team a fraction of a chance to win than when another guy is in the lineup, you will not succeed.
We've gotta split it up here again.
Since this is not happening, what is the reason for it not happening:
A) Coaches are clueless and we, who don't see the players in their daily workouts and trainig sessions know more than they do. Possibly, but doubtful.
B) The players don't show enough hunger/desire or, let's break it down, potential to win the game at any given night than a has-been NHL-winger who#s forced to play at center.

Zitat von R.Bourque

So, I don't get my chances here, what do i do? Stay in the warmth of a "big" organization, play my 12 to 8 minutes a night ( or door-duty), depending on coaches mood and make enough money tp pay for a flat and a car (oddly enough, Niko doesn't need either cause he lives at home and doesn't drive - or didn't when I last saw him)? Or are there other routes I could pursue? Could I go to a different country? to learn and comeback with skills I didn't have- as Kalt Koch and Heinrich (examples) did?

Join A different club in the league (on loan?) and arrange for a more important role than the one I'd have with the coach over there and proove my worth?

Failing that, seek employment ( or loan agreement) a tier below and proove my worth?

there are options. The young players will have to take them and force their way into the top-six.

(in the end, the clubs have themselves killed a points regulation that made sense by extending the 0-point-Protection to sub-24 instead of the planned sub-20. Sub-20-rule would've meant you can't sit 22 to 24 year olds year olds for zero points to make up the numbers. You'd have to pay/use points for those. And if you have to do that, you can't fit as many imports in the lineup. And if you can't do that, the 20-24 year olds would automatically get more ice time. The clubs didn't want that, led by vienna who didn't want to pay/use points for a 22 year old Raffi Rotter in 2009. Yes' it's that long ago.,BUt that's just a side note)

We're looking at a much more important issue as this quote shows:

es wurde, glaube ich, noch nicht verstanden, dass es weniger um den sportlichen Erfolg als viel mehr ums Überleben geht. Die Angst konnte mir noch keiner nehmen.

At this point, without a league sponsor and without a Deal for the TV rights, we will not have a league at all - beacuse no one will be willing and /or able to pay for the structure behind it. People in charge have by far failed to deliver a concept as to what would happen once Erste Group says "fuck it, we're not paying that anymore". There are fractions moving in different directions - including the absurd idea of self-marketing by a club who doesn't even know whether there'll be a league to play in next season. The presidents' meeting will shed some light - and we'll hear about it a few hours/days later depending on when graz or villach feels it suits them to spill the beans.

I'd really like to know who people think is going to pay for all this personnel and structures. Refs cost money, Organization costs money, producing live games cost money and in most fans' ideal world, every game (of their team because fuck the others) should be available on freeTv.

We're in deeper doo-doo than most here realize.


Sorry, I had to cut off there due to the limit of 10.000 characters. Rubbish idea.

Alles anzeigen

On the issue you labeled more pressing, I'll plead ignorance. The players I asked said "it'll be ok, other sponsors will come along." I don't think they did much reading up on it either, but none of us really have much control over that and I suspect fretting will not be excessively helpful.

You presented a binary which I think is worth discussing or pondering.

1. Coaches are clueless

or

2. Players are inadequate compared to former NHL players

To the latter. This is certainly true. But to return to the outset of my statement. The legio reductions affect every team. Each team has a limited number of these former NHL players, and most teams field bottom six lines at some point or another that don't consistent largely of former NHL players. A goal scored against Bar, Paulweber, Vallant, etc counts for as much as a goal against Fischer, Hansson, Kozek etc. The question isn't "are the legios or the osis better?" That's a settled question. The question is more of "why are our osis not victimizing the osis of other teams?" The question is not whether the osis should be on top lines, or whether they should receive pp time. They shouldn't. My question is why, despite the deterioration of the competition's 3rd and 4th lines, young 3rd and 4th lines continue to be so inefficient at scoring. Depth scoring certainly may be harder if you have a better team like KAC. However, in the absence of the ability to buy more former NHL players, you're stuck with the locals to provide depth scoring.

To the former. This is obviously construed in a way such that it would seem implausible, and I agree with you that it is an implausible view. But there are some things that should be considered when discussing how much knowledge the coaches and especially the GMs do have on hand. For instance. NHL teams bring all prospects and AHL stars into their pre-season camps to evaluate them. Then the AHL teams bring ECHL players aboard, etc. So for instance, this was the NY Ranger's preseason roster.

https://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2019/9/11/2086…ing-camp-roster

Red Bull to my knowledge doesn't do this. They have a team bonding event, volleyball I think and a 3v3 game for dinner between the Alps team and the EBEL. But they don't actually have their prospects train with the senior team and then send players down as they are eliminated from the process. This leaves the coach without valuable information. Coach McIlvane is a great man, diligent coach, he watches the farmteam home games. However, there are natural concerns. You see a guy like Tim harnisch who likes to solo a lot at the alps level, a natural question is "will that work in the EBEL?" Without bringing him up for practices, it's hard to tell. Also, because they've never practiced with the senior team before, you bring a guy like Filip Varejcka up. He has never played with the team before. He doesn't know the players, he doesn't know the plays, he doesn't know the system, all he had was a pregame skate. Of course he is not going to leave a strong impression. But if these players trained with the senior team during pre-season, they would be easier to integrate into the system and both the coach and the GM (who controls these player movements) would have a better idea of how to plan things. So are they clueless? No. But are they operating on insufficient information? Maybe.

And I think this is the new reality of the EBEL. With the point reductions, previously you could have like 14, 15 legios, you could have 3 lines of foreigners. The one line of young austrians wouldn't matter, they only play like 5 minutes anyways. So, as a GM, you could afford not to put any attention into which youths you signed. Just sign all the ones who turned 21. Now you probably need some lines with Austrians in them. Two, maybe if you have a string of injuries, maybe even three lines. If you still have that mentality of "we'll just take the oldest guys, because it doesn't really matter", especially if there aren't good synergies between the 4 98' born players (there aren't), then you will naturally lack depth scoring.

Zitat von Fan_atic01

Ich bitte dich um 5 Namen aus der Alps, die Innsbruck auf Anhieb helfen würden.

Was heißt helfen, ich hab gesagt, die man aufstellen kann und mit Legios die Linien ergänzen könnte!

Ich kenne mich in der Alps net aus, aber ich schreib dir gerne mal fünf Namen mit guten Stats hin:

Tim Harnisch, Niclas Würschl, Elias Wallenta, Marcel Zitz, Dominic Haberl, Benjamin Lanzinger

Wie gesagt, hab ich nur auf Grund Ihrer Statistiken und Ihrer Jugend ausgewählt!

Zitat von orli

Kannst ja im letztjährigen Thread lesen was der KAC als Antwort gegeben hat, als man sich den Schnetzer ausleihen wollte.

Jetzt ist Ramon Schnetzer eh nach Dornbirn ausgeliehen... - kein Problem.

Mannschaften, die sich den Luxus eines Farmteams leisten können, sind schon schwer im Vorteil.

Da spielen die Talente, die sonst das Bankerl in der KM wärmen, gegen erwachsene Profispieler im Wettkampfmodus.

Auch besteht die Möglichkeit sich mit guten Leistungen für die KM zu empfehlen oder auch die Gefahr in die AHL Mannschaft abzusteigen.

Profitieren können uU auch die anderen Mannschaften, wenn der eine oder andere dieser Spieler, der mit dieser Konstellation nicht zufrieden ist bzw aus anderen Gründen ausgeliehen werden kann - siehe Ramon Schnetzer.

Mit diesen Farmteams vergrößert sich dadurch auch der Spielerpool im Allgemeinen. Es braucht vielleicht noch ein wenig Zeit, ist aber ein sehr guter Weg.

Zitat von Fan_atic01

Ich bitte dich um 5 Namen aus der Alps, die Innsbruck auf Anhieb helfen würden.

Someone Innsbruck should look at is Samuel Witting. He's not really a priority for Salzburg at this point. He's a hometown kid. He's no gamechanger, but I'd much rather have Samuel Witting play 15 minutes a game for me than Michael Kuprian or Clemens Paulweber.

Die Anfangs fast schon "euphorisch" nach aussen hin kommunizierte Gleichgültigkeit ob des Endes der Kooperation Liga & Erste Bank ist nun also der längst überfälligen Ernüchterung gewichen, dass potente wie willige Sponsoren doch nicht so leicht mit dem Produkt Eishockeyliga zu ködern sind! Gut so.

Zitat von kabidjan14

Someone Innsbruck should look at is Samuel Witting. He's not really a priority for Salzburg at this point. He's a hometown kid. He's no gamechanger, but I'd much rather have Samuel Witting play 15 minutes a game for me than Michael Kuprian or Clemens Paulweber.

Who wouldn't.

But to look at him doesn't mean you can get him. It's not as if Innsbruck isn't happy to get those kind of players (see Wachter and Kromp), but it's neither a given their club parts with them nor the players want to come to Innsbruck (see Dario Winkler who preferred Vienna and it's not hard to see why).